daflon vs pycnogenol

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daflon vs pycnogenol

Postby allj » Fri Jan 12, 2007 5:50 pm

Hi all.
While trying to enhance my lymph system, I came across info on Daflon vs pycnogenol to beef up the venous system. Am assumming this would take some of the strain off the lymph system related to secondary le. For those using daflon, the study asserts that pycnolgenol is significantly more effective than Daflon and probably cheaper. Alan

Comparison of Pycnogenol and Daflon in treating chronic venous insufficiency: a prospective, controlled study.


Irvine2 Vascular Lab and Physiology, Department of Biomedical Sciences, G D'Annunzio, Chieti-Pescara University, San Valentino Vascular Screening Project, Faculty of Motory Sciences, L'Aquila University, Italy.

The aim of this study was to investigate the clinical efficacy of oral Pycnogenol (Horphag Research Ltd., UK) in patients with severe chronic venous insufficiency (CVI) in comparison to the combination of diosmin and hesperidin (Daflon, Servier, France). A group of 86 patients with severe chronic venous insufficiency (CVI), venous hypertension, ankle swelling) and previous history of venous ulcerations received either oral Pycnogenol (capsules) 150 mg or 300 mg daily for 8 weeks or Daflon, 1,000 mg/day. All patients completed the study without dropouts. At the end of the study, microcirculatory results indicated: a progressive decrease of skin flux at rest (RF); a significant decrease in capillary
filtration (RAS); an improvement in the symptomatic venous score (ASLS); a reduction in edema; a significant improvement (increase) in pO(2) and a decrease in pCO(2) in the Pycnogenol group. A significant level of improvement was reached after 4 weeks of treatment in most patients (p < .05) of the Pycnogenol group while clinical improvement was significant only in 6 subjects in the Daflon group. The positive effects of treatment with Pycnogenol after 8 weeks were significantly larger in comparison with the Daflon group. In conclusion, this study confirms the fast clinical efficacy of Pycnogenol in patients with chronic venous insufficiency and venous microangiopathy and its superiority-considering the evaluated parameters-to the combination of diosmin and hesperidin.

PMID: 16708123 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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Postby patoco » Fri Jan 12, 2007 5:55 pm

Please be aware though, neither have been proven for lymphedema

Big big difference between venous system and lymph system.

People can get into serious trouble treating venous insufficiency in the same manner as lymphedema.

Pat
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Postby allj » Fri Jan 12, 2007 8:09 pm

I can appreciate your concerns. No doubt some desperation on my part but there is a clinical trial going on now. The rationale for this trial says in part

"Pycnogenol(r) is widely used in Europe for lymphedema of the leg and varicose veins, and is thought to act by several mechanisms including vascular permeability and vascular constriction. The development of such a therapeutic approach would therefore constitute a major breakthrough in the treatment of this common symptom of breast cancer lymphedema."

For now I guess I'm a guinea pig. No miracle cure but I take this and horse chestnut. My leg doesn't seem to get quite as red when bathing nor swollen. I just wish I could stop the pain in my thigh.
Alan
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Postby patoco » Fri Jan 12, 2007 8:40 pm

Hi Alan

Well...good luck on your experiments......

But, I just can't bring myself to endorse someone experiementing on themselves with substances that have not passed indiependent clinical trials for efficacy and safety.

Here are for example some potential dangers of hrose chestnut:

Whole horse chestnut is classified as an unsafe herb. Eating the nuts or drinking a tea made from the leaves can be dangerous for our health causing horse chestnut poisoning - nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, salivation, headache, breakdown of red blood cells, convulsions, and circulatory and respiratory failure possibly leading to death.

People often confuse the seeds from the horse chestnut with nuts of the sweet chestnut. So, never take the seeds right off the tree to make a home remedy; almost all parts of the tree are poisonous. To be safe, they must be carefully treated before use.

People with severe kidney problems should avoid horse chestnut. Also injectable forms of horse chestnut can be toxic to the liver.

With some people, Horse Chestnut seed causes irritation of the digestive tract, reduced kidney function, and itching of the skin.

Horse chestnut is not recommended for children use.

Taking high doses of Horse Chestnut seed can be dangerous. Symptoms of overdose include diarrhea, pupils-dilated, loss of consciousness, appearing of red spots on the face, thirst, visual disturbances and vomiting.


I also really am saddened that people feel so desperate that they might do something that down the road may cause more harmthen good.

Believe me, Alan, if there were some magic formula, herb etc for lymphedema that was proven safe and effective, I would be the first to endorse it.

Lymphedema is more then just a nuisance or hassle to me. It has become a major life threatening condition.

Finally, breast cancer lymphedema (arm) is actually quite different then leg lymphedema and responds differently to the various treatment modalities.

Pat
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Postby allj » Sat Jan 13, 2007 11:01 pm

Thanks Pat:
It's really not the discomfort of having to use compression, it's the pain I have in my thigh that has been driving me. I'm going to be more diligent with meditation and see if I can somehow deal with this better. Alan
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